I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07


Full URL: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3713203/white-house-urges-developers-to-dump- c-and-c.html

Nightfox
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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Nightfox to All on Wed Feb 28 2024 02:28 pm

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

But BASIC and Assembly are just fine. :-)
--
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Hello Nightfox!

** On Wednesday 28.02.24 - 14:28, Nightfox wrote to All:

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

Full URL: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3713203/white-house-urges-developers-to- dump- c-and-c.html

Is the WH a good source for programming advice? :|



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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 06:27 pm

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

But BASIC and Assembly are just fine. :-)

Of course. :)

Nightfox
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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 07:06 pm

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

Is the WH a good source for programming advice? :|

I was thinking that as well.. I wonder if they talked to anyone before suggesting developers drop C and C++.

Nightfox
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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Nightfox to Ogg on Wed Feb 28 2024 08:31 pm

Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 07:06 pm

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

Is the WH a good source for programming advice? :|

I was thinking that as well.. I wonder if they talked to anyone before suggesting developers drop C and C++.

I don't doubt it. Managed languages have been big in security and enterprise app development, anywhere performance or hardware-access isn't the paramount priority, for a long time now. It's not to say that you can't have vulnerabilites in managed software (they happen all the time), they're just a different class of vulnerabilities that are generally easier to find and defend against or fix than the memory issues that plague C and C++ code bases.

It's honestly not bad advice for most projects (e.g. I don't think Apple accepts apps written in C or C++ in its app store). But keep in mind, Rust supports writing memory-unsafe code too. It's default mode is memory-safe, but it's still subvertable. So Rust might not be the cure-all they think it is.
--
digital man (rob)

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https://www.infoworld.com/article/3713203/white-house-urges-developers
-to-

dump- c-and-c.html

Is the WH a good source for programming advice? :|

I sure wouldn't think so but I have not read the article yet. ;)



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I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

But BASIC and Assembly are just fine. :-)

And, of course, COBOL!



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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 09:50 pm

I don't doubt it. Managed languages have been big in security and enterprise app development, anywhere performance or hardware-access isn't the paramount priority, for a long time now. It's not to say that you can't have vulnerabilites in managed software (they happen all the time), they're just a different class of vulnerabilities that are generally easier to find and defend against or fix than the memory issues that plague C and C++ code bases.

It's honestly not bad advice for most projects (e.g. I don't think Apple accepts apps written in C or C++ in its app store). But keep in mind, Rust supports writing memory-unsafe code too. It's default mode is memory-safe, but it's still subvertable. So Rust might not be the cure-all they think it is.

I've sometimes thought it shouldn't be much of an issue if you're always careful about how you write code. There's that adage "the poor craftsman blames his tools".. One thing I like about C and C++ is they don't do much to limit you, but I suppose that can be a blessing and a curse. And human error is always a factor, so I suppose it's good when the programming language can help you avoid introducing bugs and vulnerabilities.

Nightfox
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On 28 Feb 2024 at 09:50p, Digital Man pondered and said...

Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Nightfox to Ogg on Wed Feb 28 2024 08:31 pm

Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 07:06 pm

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

Is the WH a good source for programming advice? :|

I was thinking that as well.. I wonder if they talked to anyone before suggesting developers drop C and C++.

I don't doubt it.

Indeed, they did. There was an extensive public commentary
period wherein a number of people from industry, academia,
and government weighed in.

The WH press release is just that: a press release. The actual
text is linked, but is rather different. Effectively, the White
House is just putting out a press release to raise awareness of
efforts from across the US government.

Managed languages have been big in security and
enterprise app development, anywhere performance or hardware-access
isn't the paramount priority, for a long time now. It's not to say that you can't have vulnerabilites in managed software (they happen all the time), they're just a different class of vulnerabilities that are generally easier to find and defend against or fix than the memory
issues that plague C and C++ code bases.

+1e6

It's honestly not bad advice for most projects (e.g. I don't think Apple accepts apps written in C or C++ in its app store). But keep in mind,
Rust supports writing memory-unsafe code too. It's default mode is memory-safe, but it's still subvertable. So Rust might not be the
cure-all they think it is. --

In the various materials they link to, Rust is just one option
they mention. Ada SPARK, C#, Java, Python, Rust and Go are all
listed across the set of publications, as well as non-language
techniques (like formal methods and verification). Interestingly,
they mention Rust as being explicitly unproven in space
applications, while C that's been formally verified is well proven.

The thing about Rust unsafety is, however, a bit of a red herring.
Rust _does_ give you the ability to write memory-unsafe code, but
you have to go out of your way to do so (e.g., via explicit use of
`unsafe` or other weird shenanigans). But so do most managed
programming languages (e.g., Java with JNI etc). If one writes
Rust using the safe subset, you get memory safety and data race
freedom. Now, async cancel safety, that's another thing entirely....

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On 29 Feb 2024 at 09:31a, Nightfox pondered and said...

Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Wed Feb 28 2024 09:50 pm

I don't doubt it. Managed languages have been big in security and enterprise app development, anywhere performance or hardware-access i the paramount priority, for a long time now. It's not to say that you can't have vulnerabilites in managed software (they happen all the ti they're just a different class of vulnerabilities that are generally easier to find and defend against or fix than the memory issues that plague C and C++ code bases.

It's honestly not bad advice for most projects (e.g. I don't think Ap accepts apps written in C or C++ in its app store). But keep in mind, supports writing memory-unsafe code too. It's default mode is memory- but it's still subvertable. So Rust might not be the cure-all they th it is.

I've sometimes thought it shouldn't be much of an issue if you're always careful about how you write code.

The thing is, the last 50 years have shown us that this
doesn't hold. I've seen the best and brightest programmers,
top researchers and people out of the best academic programs
in the world, who regularly write C code that is broken in
some fashion or another.

There's that adage "the poor craftsman
blames his tools"..

True, but only because the good craftsman curates,
maintains, and carefully chooses his tools for the
job at hand. A skilled woodworker does not use a
hammer where a saw is required, and he keeps his saw
sharp and free of rust because it is safer and he
knows he'll do a better job. Knowing what tool to
use, and choosing from the best of tools, is what
separates the good craftsman from the poor.

One thing I like about C and C++ is they don't do
much to limit you, but I suppose that can be a blessing and a curse.
And human error is always a factor, so I suppose it's good when the programming language can help you avoid introducing bugs and vulnerabilities.

Indeed. Many of the arguments I'm seeing now seem
reminiscent of the arguments that were made when
people stopped writing applications in assembly and
moved to high (or higher) level programming languages.

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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Blue White to Digital Man on Thu Feb 29 2024 08:17 am

I saw this article today:
https://shorturl.at/KMZ07

But BASIC and Assembly are just fine. :-)

And, of course, COBOL!

Indeed. https://ibmmainframes.com/about6861.html
--
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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Feb 29 2024 09:31 am

I've sometimes thought it shouldn't be much of an issue if you're always careful about how you write code. There's that adage "the poor craftsman blames his tools".. One thing I like about C and C++ is they don't do much to limit you, but I suppose that can be a blessing and a curse. And human error is always a factor, so I suppose it's good when the programming language can help you avoid introducing bugs and vulnerabilities.

It's an issue. The fact that we're still finding memory-safety bugs in both new/modern and age-old (well vetted) C and C++ code is a testament that it is indeed an issue.

There is no single programming language that is the best tool for everything. For systems programming (OS kernels, device drivers, firmware), C and C++ are still tools of primary choice (though Rust is making some inroads here). But if I were to develop just about anything else that lives, privacy/security, or business operations depended upon, I'd use a managed language/environment.
--
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This Is Spinal Tap quote #36:
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Here is the actual report:

http://tinyurl.com/mr35enkr

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/ Final-ONCD-Technical-Report.pdf

When you take out the obvious political BS, which is slathered through out, the idea of migrating towards lower risk models by updated langauge
selection makes sense.

That the admin heads (Biden or Harris) even know what this is all about ... well that is rather suspect and is the political wrappings around the
good people's work.

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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Feb 29 2024 01:43 pm

There is no single programming language that is the best tool for everything. For systems programming (OS kernels, device drivers, firmware), C and C++ are still tools of primary choice (though Rust is making some inroads here). But if I were to develop just about anything else that lives, privacy/security, or business operations depended upon, I'd use a managed language/environment.

I suppose it would make sense to use a managed language/environment.
In some of the newer C++ standards, they've introduced some classes that are meant to help manage memory better for you though, suchas shared_ptr, unique_ptr, etc.. I've heard people say you can avoid using new & delete (or malloc() and free()) and use those managed pointers instead. I think another issue can be buffer overruns though, and I don't recall offhand if a managed language normally protects against that. In a quick Google search, I found a page where someone said buffer overflow exploits are possible in C#, though it's harder to produce them in C#.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: k9zw to Nightfox on Thu Feb 29 2024 11:55 am

When you take out the obvious political BS, which is slathered through out, the idea of migrating towards lower risk models by updated langauge selection makes sense.

Yeah, I agree it makes sense.

Nightfox
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On 29 Feb 2024 at 07:27p, Nightfox pondered and said...

Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Feb 29 2024 01:43 pm

There is no single programming language that is the best tool for everything. For systems programming (OS kernels, device drivers, firmware), C and C++ are still tools of primary choice (though Rust i making some inroads here). But if I were to develop just about anythi else that lives, privacy/security, or business operations depended up I'd use a managed language/environment.

I suppose it would make sense to use a managed language/environment.
In some of the newer C++ standards, they've introduced some classes that are meant to help manage memory better for you though, suchas shared_ptr, unique_ptr, etc.. I've heard people say you can avoid using new &
delete (or malloc() and free()) and use those managed pointers instead.
I think another issue can be buffer overruns though, and I don't recall offhand if a managed language normally protects against that. In a
quick Google search, I found a page where someone said buffer overflow exploits are possible in C#, though it's harder to produce them in C#.

The problem with the new facilities in C++ is that they
don't address the underlying problem, and they don't
automatically retrofit themselves onto the many billions
of lines of existing code. The sharp edges are still
there in the language, and a programmer has to proactively
go out of the way to avoid them.

The situation with most managed/memory-safe languages is
sort of the opposite. They're safe by default, but usually
have some escape hatch where you can do things that are
unsafe. But you have to go out of your way to do those
things.

Bjarne Stroustrup gave a talk recently about making C++
more safe and the gist of it that I took away was that he
wants to address much of the safety concerns by teaching
programmers to write C++ differently (e.g., teach them to
use the newer idioms, `unique_ptr`, etc). That could
certainly help, but again, history has shown us that this
doesn't scale particularly well, and in languages like C
and C++ where "undefined behavior" is both endemic and
gives compiler writers lots of leeway to mangle code in
unexpected ways (and UB in C can time travel up until C23!),
code that appears to work for _years_ can suddenly stop
doing so when you update a point revision of your compiler.
It's madness.

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Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Nightfox to All on Wed Feb 28 2024 14:28:55

Congratulations, the White House has caught up to the 1980s ;)

gopher://gopherpedia.com/0/Ada_%28programming_language%29
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Re: Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: tenser to Nightfox on Sat Mar 02 2024 02:30 am

code that appears to work for _years_ can suddenly stop
doing so when you update a point revision of your compiler.
It's madness.

It's also the reason so many commercial and open source "linters" (static analyzers) and run-time analysis tools exist today (primarily, for use with C and C++ projects) - detecting undefined behavior, security issues. The unsafety of C and C++ have kept a lot of people busy for a lot of years. :-)

I've definitely seen what you're describing though - hey this worked before I upgraded the tools, it must be a bug in the tools! <sigh> It's almost never a bug in the tools. :-(
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Re: Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: Digital Man to tenser on Fri Mar 01 2024 10:56 am

code that appears to work for _years_ can suddenly stop doing so when you
update a point revision of your compiler. It's madness.

It's also the reason so many commercial and open source "linters" (static analyzers) and run-time analysis tools exist today (primarily, for use with C and C++ projects) - detecting undefined behavior, security issues. The unsafety of C and C++ have kept a lot of people busy for a lot of years. :-)

I've definitely seen what you're describing though - hey this worked before I upgraded the tools, it must be a bug in the tools! <sigh> It's almost never a bug in the tools. :-(

Years ago I was working on a C++ project where sometimes we'd update to a newer version of the compiler, and a bug in a section of the code would start showing up. It was obvious to me it was a bug in the code, and I wondered how it seemed to work fine when we were using the previous version of the compiler.

Nightfox
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On 01 Mar 2024 at 10:56a, Digital Man pondered and said...

Re: Re: US White House urges devs to dump C and C++
By: tenser to Nightfox on Sat Mar 02 2024 02:30 am

code that appears to work for _years_ can suddenly stop
doing so when you update a point revision of your compiler.
It's madness.

It's also the reason so many commercial and open source "linters" (static analyzers) and run-time analysis tools exist today (primarily, for use with C and C++ projects) - detecting undefined behavior, security
issues. The unsafety of C and C++ have kept a lot of people busy for a
lot of years. :-)

Oh yeah. A lot of the argument for C/C++ is that one
can use static analysis tools to catch errors that the
compiler won't; that's all well and good, but yeah, it
keeps us busy.

Also, some bugs are just hard to catch. At one point,
we got told at Google to stop using unsigned integers
to index into arrays and instead use signed integers,
because unsigned overflow is well-defined in C, but
signed integer overflow is UB, so could be detected with
UBsan. /shrug

I've definitely seen what you're describing though - hey this worked before I upgraded the tools, it must be a bug in the tools! <sigh> It's almost never a bug in the tools. :-(

Yup. :/

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