As I was about to post this, I was wondering if there was an 'automotive' (or 'cars') area; I don't see one here (not sure if there would be interest in one), but I thought I'd post this here.

I recently bought a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback. I'd previously had a 2009 Volkswagen Rabbit (the US name for the Golf at the time), and I'd thought of buying something new(er) for a little while.

I like Volkswagen and have driven several of their cars over the years, but I decided to make a switch this time. I don't particularly like that Volkswagen has started using a lot of touch panels in their cars instead of actual buttons & switches etc.. Also a minor thing, but I'd seen one of their newer cars at an auto show, and the sun shade under the sunroof still let a bit of light through (I'd prefer the sun shade completely block the sunlight when in use). Also, Volkswagen has stopped selling their base-model Golf in the US (leaving only the GTI and 'R' variants). I'd considered buying a used Golf from within the past few years, but was curious about other brands.

One thing I'd heard about Mazda is that they don't use CVT transmissions, which several car makers are using now. I'd also heard Mazda gets high reliability ratings (higher than Volkswagen). I had actually considered buying a Mazda3 hatchback when I bought my last Volkswagen, so I had a look again, and it sounded like the latest Mazda3 has been getting really good reviews for drivability, reliability, etc., and it also gets better fuel economy than my Volkswagen did.

I decided on a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback, in the 'Preferred' trim. It doesn't have the turbocharged engine, but that has its advantages - The non-turbo gets better fuel economy, it's one less part that could have problems, doesn't need high-octane fuel, and I've heard it can use full synthetic oil (whereas I've heard the turbo engine needs a blend of some kind).

I really like this Mazda. It drives and maneuvers well (particularly since it's not a huge car), it gets fairly good fuel economy, and I like that it has its sensors to detect cars around you. Also, its radio suppors Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, so you can plug in your smartphone and use it through the stereo (useful to be able to use things like your phone's maps/GPS, audio streaming, etc.). The Mazda's stereo also has its own GPS navigation, though you do need to buy an SD card with navigation data for that to work (and with that, interestingly, it will display an icon on the dashbord showing the speed limit on the road you're driving on). Also, the stereo is integrated and can't be replaced (they aren't using the DIN standard), which I think is a bit disappointing.

Being such a newer car compared to my last car, it has some interesting 'smart' features as far as sensors to detect cars around you - It shows you (or alerts you) if there's a car coming up in an adjacent lane. It also has adaptive cruise control - You can set the cruise control speed, and if it detects that you're getting close to a car in front of you, it will slow down to match their speed until they move away. It also has automatic emergency braking, which is supposed to engage the brakes to avoid a crash if it detects something in front of you while moving - though I've seen a couple posts online where people have said the brakes suddenly engaged for no apparent reason (and in one case, someone rear-ended them due to their brakes coming on suddenly).

Overall, I wanted a reliable car that's less expensive to maintain than my Volkswagen was - It sounds like hopefully this Mazda will be.

Nightfox
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I like Volkswagen and have driven several of their cars over the years, but I decided to make a switch this time. I don't particularly like

I also have had a number of VWs over the years. I had a 2003 GTI and later a 2008 GTI. These cars were amazingly fun to drive, and they felt faster than they probably were.

I also had a 69 Beetle that I halfway rebuilt just for fun. It was also a blast, and frankly, I really miss that car! I think I'll get another Beetle in the future to fix up.

I was /this/ close to getting a Westfalia camper, but ultimately we decided against it as it would be not only a vintage car to maintain, but since it was built in the 80s it would require extensive SMOG and CARB testing in California. If it were built ten years earlier, I wouldn't have had to worry about this, and probably would have one in my driveway!

Being such a newer car compared to my last car, it has some interesting 'smart' features as far as sensors to detect cars around you - It shows you (or alerts you) if there's a car coming up in an adjacent lane. It also has adaptive cruise control - You can set the cruise control speed, and if it detects that you're getting close to a car in front of you, it will slow down to match their speed until they move away. It also has automatic emergency braking, which is supposed to engage the brakes to avoid a crash if it detects something in front of you while moving - though I've seen a couple posts online where people have said the brakes suddenly engaged for no apparent reason (and in one case, someone rear-ended them due to their brakes coming on suddenly).

These smart features are called L2 ADAS. My company works in this space, it's pretty fascinating. Autonomy is the goal for every company but it's still a ways off; L2 ADAS is a stepping stone.

Overall, I wanted a reliable car that's less expensive to maintain than
my Volkswagen was - It sounds like hopefully this Mazda will be.

Nice. Hope it plays out that way. I bought a 2018 Fiat 500E (Electric) for a cheap commuter that doesn't require much maintenance. As it's a tiny electric car, it's very maneuverable, rather fun to drive, and costs astonishingly little to keep charged up at home.

This car has a funny pedigree. Stellantis (basically Chrysler) was told that too many of their vehicles were gas guzzlers, and California told Stellantis that if they wanted to continue selling vehicles in CA, they'd need some way to offset this. What Stellantis did was tell Fiat to build an electric car. Fiat begrudgingly built its 500 model into an electric car. They lost like 10-15k on each one of these sold, but as they were compliance cars, they had no real choice in the matter. To my knowledge this car was only sold in CA and maybe Oregon or Washington, but I can't remember exactly.

Anyway the 500E is rare outside of California, and you don't see many here either. But it's a great commuter! I essentially bought my way into the carpool lane as it's an electric car, and it requires shockingly little maintenance. The range sucks, especially if you drive like me, and if you have a problem with the batteries or something you're probably hosed as Fiat never really invested in maintaining these cars, but in the near term it's a home run.

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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: esc to Nightfox on Wed May 24 2023 10:23 am

I also have had a number of VWs over the years. I had a 2003 GTI and later a 2008 GTI. These cars were amazingly fun to drive, and they felt faster than they probably were.

I like the GTIs. I briefly had a used 2001 GTI with the 1.8T engine. The dealership said it had been in an accident, but they didn't say what extent the damage was.. A couple days after I bought it, the Check Engine light came on, and it occasionally had some engine stuttering. I brought it into the VW dealership for that, and they said they checked the engine code and found the engine had been swapped in from a Jetta. I'd never bought a new GTI though because they always seemed fairly expensive.

I also had a 69 Beetle that I halfway rebuilt just for fun. It was also a blast, and frankly, I really miss that car! I think I'll get another Beetle in the future to fix up.

I've known a couple people with older VW Beetles, and it seemed they were often working on them, either fixing them or tweaking something.

I was /this/ close to getting a Westfalia camper, but ultimately we decided against it as it would be not only a vintage car to maintain, but since it was built in the 80s it would require extensive SMOG and CARB testing in California. If it were built ten years earlier, I wouldn't have had to worry about this, and probably would have one in my driveway!

I always thought those were cool. And isn't there a 90s model (EuroVan)?

These smart features are called L2 ADAS. My company works in this space, it's pretty fascinating. Autonomy is the goal for every company but it's still a ways off; L2 ADAS is a stepping stone.

Ah, interesting.

Overall, I wanted a reliable car that's less expensive to maintain
than my Volkswagen was - It sounds like hopefully this Mazda will
be.

Nice. Hope it plays out that way. I bought a 2018 Fiat 500E (Electric) for a cheap commuter that doesn't require much maintenance. As it's a tiny electric car, it's very maneuverable, rather fun to drive, and costs astonishingly little to keep charged up at home.

That's cool. I wouldn't mind having an inexpensive electric car, but currently I live in an apartment and I don't have a godo way to charge one. Also, I'd like to be able to take longer road trips, and currently I'd worry about being able to charge it in such a case.

This car has a funny pedigree. Stellantis (basically Chrysler) was told that too many of their vehicles were gas guzzlers, and California told Stellantis that if they wanted to continue selling vehicles in CA, they'd need some way to offset this. What Stellantis did was tell Fiat to build an electric car. Fiat begrudgingly built its 500 model into an electric car. They lost like 10-15k on each one of these sold, but as they were compliance cars, they had no real choice in the matter. To my knowledge this car was only sold in CA and maybe Oregon or Washington, but I can't remember exactly.

Interesting.. California seems to have some strict laws about cars.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: esc to Nightfox on Wed May 24 2023 10:23 am

I was /this/ close to getting a Westfalia camper, but ultimately we decided against it as it would be not only a vintage car to maintain, but since it was built in the 80s it would require extensive SMOG and CARB testing in California. If it were built ten years earlier, I wouldn't have had to worry about this, and probably would have one in my driveway!

I owned 2 VW Buses (campers, but not Westfalia), circa 1970 bought used around 1986. The first was totalled (rear-ended at high speed) before I really got a chance to drive it much. Anyway, they're horrible, loud, slow, unsafe vehicles. Do not recommend. :-)
--
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This Is Spinal Tap quote #27:
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Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to All on Wed May 24 2023 09:32 am

I recently bought a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback. I'd previously had a 2009 Volkswagen Rabbit (the US name for the Golf at the time), and I'd thought of buying something new(er) for a little while.

I ordered a Ford Ranger in Feb of 2022.

I was originally told that it may come by Nov/Dec, but most likely in Jan.

When Dec came along, I was told it will be built in June (this year).

Still waiting... :(


...����
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I've known a couple people with older VW Beetles, and it seemed they
were often working on them, either fixing them or tweaking something.

Yeah, older cars require consistent maintenance and tweaking is not far off. People that buy these things typically want to turn wrenches on their cars. We gearheads self select into these situations :)

I always thought those were cool. And isn't there a 90s model (EuroVan)?

Yeah, but IMO not nearly as cool. Plus, 90s models still have SMOG and CARB testing.

That's cool. I wouldn't mind having an inexpensive electric car, but currently I live in an apartment and I don't have a godo way to charge one. Also, I'd like to be able to take longer road trips, and currently I'd worry about being able to charge it in such a case.

Yeah, my Fiat is decidedly not a long distance car. It has enough charge to get me to work and back with a couple quick errands mixed in. There's no way it could ever be a road trip car.

Interesting.. California seems to have some strict laws about cars.

Indeed, but if you consider how much of California was blanketed in smog decades ago, vs how clean the air is now, you start to understand. It's annoying to deal with but on the whole increases the quality of life here.

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I owned 2 VW Buses (campers, but not Westfalia), circa 1970 bought used around 1986. The first was totalled (rear-ended at high speed) before I really got a chance to drive it much. Anyway, they're horrible, loud, slow, unsafe vehicles. Do not recommend. :-)

Ha! I still like them!

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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: esc to Digital Man on Wed May 24 2023 03:43 pm

Ha! I still like them!

I understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdMAu-AYMGo
--
digital man (rob)

Synchronet "Real Fact" #75:
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On 25 May 2023, deon said the following...

I ordered a Ford Ranger in Feb of 2022.

I was originally told that it may come by Nov/Dec, but most likely in
Jan.

When Dec came along, I was told it will be built in June (this year).

Still waiting... :(

Don't feel bad Deon, because of the chip shortage and the Pandemic, a lot of the higher wanted vehicles are taking forever.. I work at a GMC/Buick Dealer, we sold 3 Electric Hummers in the end of 2021 when they were announced 2 arrived in November, and the last one just a month ago! We have a customer who just cancelled an order for a 2022 Yukon XL Denali. 2022!! He was waiting over a year.. It's pretty sad that things are this way. Hopefully your truck comes in soon!

Al

... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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I understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdMAu-AYMGo

Ha. Precisely :P

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
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I ordered a Ford Ranger in Feb of 2022.

I was originally told that it may come by Nov/Dec, but most likely in Jan.
Still waiting... :(

Don't feel bad Deon, because of the chip shortage and the Pandemic, a
lot of the higher wanted vehicles are taking forever..

Hopefully your truck comes in soon!

Can you believe I just took possession of a 2o23 Dodge RAM Limited... and promptly left the tailgate down while backing up... down... backing u.... crunch.

L0vin it.



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

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I ordered a Ford Ranger in Feb of 2022.

You're going to be a Danger Ranger :P

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Nightfox wrote (2023-05-24):

As I was about to post this, I was wondering if there was an 'automotive' (or 'cars') area; I don't see one here (not sure if there would be
interest in one), but I thought I'd post this here.

We had one until recently: FSX_TRANSPORT. But it was low traffic and cars suck anyway, especially the ones powered by gasoline ;). I'm glad the area is gone.

⁂

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I have a family so I need room. I bought a Honda Pilot because its basically a 4x4 Minivan. We don't always use the 3rd row seating but it is nice to have it when you need it. I used to have a Jeep and man the jeep was just nicer all around but didn't have the room I need.

|23|04Dr|16|12Claw
|16|14Sysop |12Noverdu |14BBS |20|15Radio|10@|14HTTP://Noverdu.com:88
|16|10 Standard ports for SSH/Telnet |04 WEB|14@|12HTTP://noverdu.com:808 |20|15Global Chat, Global Messaging and Games! |16|10Ditch the Unsocial Media

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Yeah, my Fiat is decidedly not a long distance car. It has enough
charge to get me to work and back with a couple quick errands mixed in. There's no way it could ever be a road trip car.

Our 2021 Nissan Leaf has about a 250 mile range. We use it when we want to go down to Denver (which is about 60 miles away), but that's about the longest trip we make in it. We use it *A LOT* for around-town trips, though, since we basically fill it up for 'free' with the solar on the roof.

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BY: Digital Man (21:1/183)

|11DM|09> |10I owned 2 VW Buses (campers, but not Westfalia), circa 1970 bought used|07
|11DM|09> |10around 1986. The first was totalled (rear-ended at high speed) before I|07
|11DM|09> |10really got a chance to drive it much. Anyway, they're horrible, loud,|07
|11DM|09> |10slow, unsafe vehicles. Do not recommend. :-)|07
I think VW has new electric buses coming soon.


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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Digital Man to esc on Wed May 24 2023 01:23 pm

I was /this/ close to getting a Westfalia camper, but ultimately we

I owned 2 VW Buses (campers, but not Westfalia), circa 1970 bought used around 1986. The first was totalled (rear-ended at high speed) before I really got a chance to drive it much. Anyway, they're horrible, loud, slow, unsafe vehicles. Do not recommend. :-)

I remember reading those were powered by the same engine VW used in their (smaller) Beetle. I could imainge they were slow and a bit loud. I always thought the Westfalia looked like it was probably a better vehicle overall.

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: deon to Nightfox on Thu May 25 2023 07:59 am

I ordered a Ford Ranger in Feb of 2022.

I was originally told that it may come by Nov/Dec, but most likely in Jan.

When Dec came along, I was told it will be built in June (this year).

Still waiting... :(

I've heard of this.. :/ I'd heard the car industry has been affected by parts shortages due to covid.

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to All on Wed May 24 2023 09:32 am

I recently bought a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback. I'd previously had a 2009

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on the passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Utopian Galt to Digital Man on Thu May 25 2023 07:12 am

I think VW has new electric buses coming soon.

I've been hearing about that for maybe a couple years now.. Not sure if it's actually going to happen, or maybe they're not selling it in the US.

Nightfox
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I've heard of this.. :/ I'd heard the car industry has been affected
by parts shortages due to covid.

Nightfox

We bought a new Honda CRV this past March. We were told by the local Honda Dealer that it would be a "month" before they would know what they were getting and that they would then let us know the price. We said good bye and drove 2 hours to Houston to buy one. It took two weeks to actually get one in at the dealership. They told us they had 60 ready to be delivered to the dealership but because they couldn't get delivery drivers, they didn't know when exactly they'd receive them.

ogg
Sysop, Altair IV BBS
altairiv.ddns.net:2323

... APPLE: It may be slow, but at least it's expensive.

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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Utopian Galt to Digital Man on Thu May 25 2023 07:12 am

I think VW has new electric buses coming soon.

Last time I asked at my local VW office for info on electric cars for my boss, it didn't seem to me VW trusted their electrical vehicles very much.

Warranties on componentes ran short and extensions were expensive.

The sales representative did his best to try and convince us to sign that repairs on renting / leasing vehicles were our responsibility (in exchange of a discount).

I wonder if electric cars sell with a GPLesque booklet that explains THIS CAR IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

This tech is an open beta. They don't even have repair facilities in town for these yet.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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On 24 May 2023, paulie420 said the following...

Can you believe I just took possession of a 2o23 Dodge RAM Limited... and promptly left the tailgate down while backing up... down... backing u.... crunch.

Ouch!!! Now that sucks! Hopefully, parts won't be an issue getting.. I am going nuts with Bumpers, Headlamps and Grilles right now.. It's pretty pitiful..

Al

... It said "insert disk #3", but only two will fit...

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On 25 May 2023, Nightfox said the following...

I've heard of this.. :/ I'd heard the car industry has been affected
by parts shortages due to covid.

And it is not getting any better almost 3 years after things started getting back to normal..

... There is an exception to every rule, except this one.

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Still waiting... :(

I've heard of this.. :/ I'd heard the car industry has been affected
by parts shortages due to covid.

The car manufacturers basically shot themselves in the foot. They anticipated lower demand during and post COVID. Subsequently they cut standing orders for chips and the chip manufacturers put the spare capacity to other uses. So no chips for cars until the current contract runs finish

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
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Nightfox wrote to All <=-

but I decided to make a switch this time. I don't particularly like
that Volkswagen has started using a lot of touch panels in their cars instead of actual buttons & switches etc..

There are several automotive sources that are citing those touch panels as driver distractions/safety concerns. There was an article not too long ago that praised one of the automakers for sticking with mostly buttons in
their lineup.


... How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
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Hello paulie420!

** On Wednesday 24.05.23 - 19:20, paulie420 wrote to Bucko:

Can you believe I just took possession of a 2o23 Dodge RAM Limited... and promptly left the tailgate down while backing up... down... backing u.... crunch.

L0vin it.

Don't the new trucks have backup sensors?


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
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There are several automotive sources that are citing those touch panels
as driver distractions/safety concerns. There was an article not too
long ago that praised one of the automakers for sticking with mostly buttons in their lineup.

If I have to use a touchscreen to mess with the climate control....lol. I hope more OEMs start going back to hardware buttons for the critical things.

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Re: Re: Danger Ranger
By: StormTrooper to Nightfox on Thu May 25 2023 11:32 pm

I've heard of this.. :/ I'd heard the car industry has been
affected by parts shortages due to covid.

The car manufacturers basically shot themselves in the foot. They anticipated lower demand during and post COVID. Subsequently they cut standing orders for chips and the chip manufacturers put the spare capacity to other uses. So no chips for cars until the current contract runs finish

I thought I heard it was the other way around, low production of computer chips causing car companies to lower production and in some caess, remove some features from their cars that use chips they couldn't obtain.

This is an article about the missing features during the chip shortage: https://shorturl.at/bmtI9

Full URL (word-wrapped): https://wtop.com/consumer-news/2022/01/edmunds-new-cars-and-missing-features-wh at-you-can-do/

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Blue White to Nightfox on Thu May 25 2023 05:09 pm

but I decided to make a switch this time. I don't particularly like
that Volkswagen has started using a lot of touch panels in their
cars instead of actual buttons & switches etc..

There are several automotive sources that are citing those touch panels as driver distractions/safety concerns. There was an article not too long ago that praised one of the automakers for sticking with mostly buttons in their lineup.

Makes sense. I like the tactile feel of physical buttons, knobs, and switches, especially while I'm driving.

Nightfox
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On 25 May 2023, Nightfox said the following...

Makes sense. I like the tactile feel of physical buttons, knobs, and switches, especially while I'm driving.

it helps if you have to be super attentive and also feel for some control.
you can't feel around for a control on a screen lol. worse everything you
touch on the screen without looking is instantly activated.

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Can you believe I just took possession of a 2o23 Dodge RAM Limited... and promptly left the tailgate down while backing up... down... backing u.... crunch.

Now we're talking cars, not some scooters :)

Back on VW vs. Mazda.. I was trying once Mazda 6 for a test drive, I liked
it, although it looks and performed a bit like cheap alternative to audi A5.

Mazda 3 looks to me like Mazda 6 with it's ass being cut off. Not my style to drive such small cars anymore.

With VW... well all I know about this group is that Czechs make the best German cars these days, thus I've opted for Skoda rather than VW. Both have the same parts, but Skoda already has some systems that even Audi is more conservative to place within reasonable price point.

I currently drive Kodiaq in Scout version and it's like driving Q7, just for the half of the price.

Unfortunately Skoda isn't available in US I believe.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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Nightfox wrote to Blue White <=-

Makes sense. I like the tactile feel of physical buttons, knobs, and switches, especially while I'm driving.

I cannot find the link now but several months ago a Swiss (or Swedish?)
online magazine did a test of several new cars, as well as an older Saab
(so they could include a car that was all buttons).

The test drivers had to go through different scenarios (turning
on/adjusting the A/C, turning on/adjusting the radio, etc.) in various
driving scenarios. The test measured how quickly they could do those
tasks, and also supposedly measured how much of that time they spent not looking at the road.

The older Saab did quite well. :) The newer cars with more buttons came
next. The full touchscreen models were last.



... Keep your stick on the ice
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esc wrote to Blue White <=-

If I have to use a touchscreen to mess with the climate control....lol.
I hope more OEMs start going back to hardware buttons for the critical things.

I had a 2013 Ford Fussion with the touchscreen (with a "Powered by
Microsoft" logo on the bezel). It was ok when it was working right.
However, it had a bad way of just turning the climate control on when I was
not touching the screen. I was driving down the highway one day and it
kicked the defrost on full fan and full HOT. It was one of those days
where it was not cold enough to have heat on, and not hot enough to need
the A/C, but it was warm enough that having HOT air blowing in my face was
not at all pleasant.

Whenever it did this, you could not turn it off. You had to find a place
to pull over, turn off the car, pull the key out of the ignition, and then
wait a couple of seconds before restarting. Considering that they'd had touchscreens in their cars for a few years by that point, you'd think that
bugs like that would be ironed out by then.

Once, I experienced what is apparently the Ford/M$ version of the "blue
screen of death." IIRC, a couple of years later, they switched the system
to be powered by a non-M$ OS.

Otherwise, I really liked the car, so I traded it on a 2016 model that
didn't have the touchscreen. I had driven one on a long enough business
trip to realize I liked that a lot more. :)




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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Blue White to Nightfox on Fri May 26 2023 09:12 am

I cannot find the link now but several months ago a Swiss (or Swedish?) online magazine did a test of several new cars, as well as an older Saab (so they could include a car that was all buttons).

The test drivers had to go through different scenarios (turning on/adjusting the A/C, turning on/adjusting the radio, etc.) in various driving scenarios. The test measured how quickly they could do those tasks, and also supposedly measured how much of that time they spent not looking at the road.

The older Saab did quite well. :) The newer cars with more buttons came next. The full touchscreen models were last.

I wonder how it is that touch screens and touch panels have become trendy for car makers lately. I'd think more careful planning could have been done before making such a change that may make the car less safe.

With my last car, years ago I decided to replace the original car stereo (basic AM/FM/CD changer stereo) with a Kenwood GPS stereo, which had a touch screen. I found I had to be more careful when using it since it was a touch screen rather than having physical controls.. My new car has a stereo with a GPS, but it's not a touch screen and uses only physical controls. The car itself has only physical controls (no touch panels), and I appreciate that they designed the car that way.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu May 25 2023 09:34 am

Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Digital Man to esc on Wed May 24 2023 01:23 pm

I was /this/ close to getting a Westfalia camper, but ultimately we

I owned 2 VW Buses (campers, but not Westfalia), circa 1970 bought used around 1986. The first was totalled (rear-ended at high speed) before I really got a chance to drive it much. Anyway, they're horrible, loud, slow, unsafe vehicles. Do not recommend. :-)

I remember reading those were powered by the same engine VW used in their (smaller) Beetle. I could imainge they were slow and a bit loud.

Yeah, the 1960's VW buses were 1600cc motors stock. My second bus came with an 1883cc (after-market or bored-out) motor, but it turned out to have a cracked block (no doubt due to overheating due to lack of sufficient cooling). I replaced that motor with a dual-carb 1776cc motor which gave the bus more pep (could actuallly achieve 65mph) but ran cooler than the 1883cc, but still a dog compared to modern vehicles on the road in the mid-late 1980s. Then of course, the vehicle wouldn't pass CA smog certification and wasn't old enough for an exemption, so that just ended up being a major money pit waste of time.

I always
thought the Westfalia looked like it was probably a better vehicle overall.

Maybe you're thinking of the newer ones.
--
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Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to All on Thu May 25 2023 09:36 am

Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to All on Wed May 24 2023 09:32 am

I recently bought a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback. I'd previously had a 2009

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on the passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

That's one of the reasons I only buy used cars. :-)
--
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Hello Blue White!

** On Friday 26.05.23 - 09:12, Blue White wrote to Nightfox:

The older Saab did quite well. :) The newer cars with
more buttons came next. The full touchscreen models were
last.

Not surprising really. Virtual buttons lack tactile feel. With
real buttons, one can manipulate them without looking.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
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I recently bought a new 2023 Mazda3 hatchback. I'd previously had 2009

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on the passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

Oh man. That sux! Sounds like a shopping cart at the grocery store?

|16|12HusTler

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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: HusTler to nightfox on Sat May 27 2023 07:05 am

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on
the passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

Oh man. That sux! Sounds like a shopping cart at the grocery store?

I think it may have been someone else's car door or something at my apartment complex.

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Fri May 26 2023 02:05 pm

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on the
passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

That's one of the reasons I only buy used cars. :-)

Yep, there are definately advantages to buying a used car. :)

Nightfox
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On 25 May 2023, Nightfox said the following...

There are several automotive sources that are citing those touch pane driver distractions/safety concerns. There was an article not too lon that praised one of the automakers for sticking with mostly buttons i their lineup.

Makes sense. I like the tactile feel of physical buttons, knobs, and switches, especially while I'm driving.

Touchscreen controls require your visual attention be diverted to find your place.

They also expect fine motor motion well controlled.

I'm all for tactile controls, and rather like the ones that even if the actual control is "by wire" have built in some feedback.

Back in Blackberry phone days, I could dial in the dark or with my eyes elsewhere by feel, until the nicer phones migrated to touch screens.

--- Steve K9ZW via SPOT BBS

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Nightfox wrote to Digital Man <=-

This morning I noticed my car has a very small ding already, on the
passenger door. :/ Not even 3 weeks after I bought it..

That's one of the reasons I only buy used cars. :-)

Yep, there are definately advantages to buying a used car. :)

Well, it's only new until the dealership goes out of sight in the
rearview mirror... :-)



... Then, suddenly and embarrassingly, my swash came unbuckled.
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sat May 27 2023 02:45 pm

Yep, there are definately advantages to buying a used car. :)

Well, it's only new until the dealership goes out of sight in the rearview mirror... :-)

:)
One thing I find interesting is, if you're looking for a car in a specific trim level or color and a dealership doesn't have one like that, the dealership is perfectly willing to transport one like that from another dealership - and often that might involve someone just driving it over. So you could go pick up your 'new' car that might have 100+ miles on it due to being driven from another dealership.

Nightfox
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Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yep, there are definately advantages to buying a used car. :)

Well, it's only new until the dealership goes out of sight in the
rearview mirror... :-)

:)
One thing I find interesting is, if you're looking for a car in a
specific trim level or color and a dealership doesn't have one
like that, the dealership is perfectly willing to transport one
like that from another dealership - and often that might involve
someone just driving it over. So you could go pick up your 'new'
car that might have 100+ miles on it due to being driven from
another dealership.

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires
them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on
it. :-)



... If it has tits or tires sooner or later it's going to give you trouble!
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Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on it. :-)

Separately, I just did a massive overhaul of my old Mustang. New engine, trans, suspension, rear end, wheels, tires, brakes, the whole 9. And I swapped out the gauges during the build. So now I actually know how many miles the mechanical parts have, because the gauges and all those parts started at the exact same time. Currently my Mustang (aside from the steel and sheet metal) has about 100 miles and it's more than 50 years old :)

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Can you believe I just took possession of a 2o23 Dodge RAM Limited... promptly left the tailgate down while backing up... down... backing u. crunch.

L0vin it.

Don't the new trucks have backup sensors?

Shut up. :P



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
|08.........

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esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on it. :-)

Separately, I just did a massive overhaul of my old Mustang. New
engine, trans, suspension, rear end, wheels, tires, brakes, the
whole 9. And I swapped out the gauges during the build. So now I
actually know how many miles the mechanical parts have, because
the gauges and all those parts started at the exact same time.
Currently my Mustang (aside from the steel and sheet metal) has
about 100 miles and it's more than 50 years old :)

Very cool indeed. Nice work!



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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sat May 27 2023 03:35 pm

One thing I find interesting is, if you're looking for a car in a
specific trim level or color and a dealership doesn't have one
like that, the dealership is perfectly willing to transport one
like that from another dealership - and often that might involve
someone just driving it over. So you could go pick up your 'new'

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on it. :-)

I think the lowest mileage of any new car I've seen or heard of was maybe 5 miles. When dealerships get a car, it seems it involves some amount of driving. And if the dealership isn't close to a shipyard where cars come in, it may involve a bit more driving to get it to the dealership.

Nightfox
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Hello Nightfox!

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had
specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires
them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on
it. :-)

I think the lowest mileage of any new car I've seen or heard of was maybe
5 miles. When dealerships get a car, it seems it involves some amount of driving. And if the dealership isn't close to a shipyard where cars come in, it may involve a bit more driving to get it to the dealership.

I've never heard of anyone buying a new car with single-digit
miles on it. Anyone buying a particular car would take it out
for a test drive, and surely that would even include a brief
stint on a highway, no?

--

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Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

One thing I find interesting is, if you're looking for a car in a
specific trim level or color and a dealership doesn't have one like
that, the dealership is perfectly willing to transport one like that
from another dealership - and often that might involve someone just driving it over. So you could go pick up your 'new' car that might
have 100+ miles on it due to being driven from another dealership.

I had a friend who fell into some cool jobs in high school and college.
One of them was working for a friend of his father who ran an 2 exotic car dealerships. He got hired to wash cars and drive them back and forth
between the dealerships, around 40 miles apart. Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis...

I bought a Volvo wagon, sight unseen, supposedly still in the wrap at
the warehouse. When they drove it to us to pick up, it had a road ding
on the hood and a receipt from a golf shop 20 miles away. Oh, and 750
miles on the odometer. We renegotiated on the spot.



... Only one element of each kind
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I had a friend who fell into some cool jobs in high school and college. One of them was working for a friend of his father who ran an 2 exotic
car dealerships. He got hired to wash cars and drive them back and forth between the dealerships, around 40 miles apart. Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis...

I had a friend in HS with a similar gig at a local Porsche dealership. People would bring their cars in for service, and he'd take them to the car wash a mile or so away. Anyway, yeah, one day he totaled a customer's 911 Turbo. He also wound up in the hospital for a bit with a few broken bones. Idiot.

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Re: New Mazda
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Sun May 28 2023 07:32 am

I think the lowest mileage of any new car I've seen or heard of was
maybe 5 miles. When dealerships get a car, it seems it involves

I've never heard of anyone buying a new car with single-digit
miles on it. Anyone buying a particular car would take it out
for a test drive, and surely that would even include a brief
stint on a highway, no?

Yeah, what I meant was the miles shown on the car at the dealership, before any test drive etc..

For a test drive though, do people take new cars for test drives more than a few miles? I'm not sure I've known anyone who has test-driven a car 10+ miles.

I suppose other people could have test-driven a car and decided not to buy it. But there's still always that first person to see the car, possibly with single-digit miles shown on it.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Sun May 28 2023 09:18 am

I had a friend who fell into some cool jobs in high school and college. One of them was working for a friend of his father who ran an 2 exotic car dealerships. He got hired to wash cars and drive them back and forth between the dealerships, around 40 miles apart. Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis...

That sounds like it would be a pretty cool job.

I bought a Volvo wagon, sight unseen, supposedly still in the wrap at
the warehouse. When they drove it to us to pick up, it had a road ding
on the hood and a receipt from a golf shop 20 miles away. Oh, and 750 miles on the odometer. We renegotiated on the spot.

Yeah, I'd renegotiate that too..

When buying a new car these days, dealerships are offering a protection plan to repair cosmetic damage such as dents, wheel damage, and things like window damage. Those may come in handy to cover repairs for a little while if you get a dent or ding in your brand-new car.

Nightfox
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Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

One thing I find interesting is, if you're looking for a car in a
specific trim level or color and a dealership doesn't have one
like that, the dealership is perfectly willing to transport one
like that from another dealership - and often that might involve
someone just driving it over. So you could go pick up your 'new'

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on it. :-)

I think the lowest mileage of any new car I've seen or heard of
was maybe 5 miles. When dealerships get a car, it seems it
involves some amount of driving. And if the dealership isn't
close to a shipyard where cars come in, it may involve a bit more
driving to get it to the dealership.

Sure, agreed. When I said it comes in with no miles on it, that's what
I was thinking. Yeah, 10-12 miles is fine, they probably took a short
spin in it to check things out. But much more than that would make me
wonder and/or even question them about it.



... A day without sunshine is like night.
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Ogg wrote to Nightfox <=-

Hello Nightfox!

Yeah, that would probably tick me off. I think if they told me that,
I'd insist that they load it on a truck to get it here. I've always had
specific (ahem... wife-induced) details/options requested that requires
them to build it that way and that ensures it comes in with no miles on
it. :-)

I think the lowest mileage of any new car I've seen or heard of was maybe
5 miles. When dealerships get a car, it seems it involves some amount of driving. And if the dealership isn't close to a shipyard where cars come in, it may involve a bit more driving to get it to the dealership.

I've never heard of anyone buying a new car with single-digit
miles on it. Anyone buying a particular car would take it out
for a test drive, and surely that would even include a brief
stint on a highway, no?

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot. You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that way, and
the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up when it comes
in to the dealership. Nobody else ever test drives it.



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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: Gamgee to Ogg on Sun May 28 2023 05:21 pm

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot. You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that way, and the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up when it comes
in to the dealership. Nobody else ever test drives it.

Do car makers/dealerships charge extra for a custom-order?
And I recently read in a forum on Reddit that someone had made a custom-order for a new 2022-model car about a year ago and it still hasn't come in yet (probably due to parts shortages due to covid). He said they bumped him up to a 2023 model and also charged something like $200 more for the difference in price (doesn't seem fair since they were the ones who made him wait).

Nightfox
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Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot. You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that way, and the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up when it comes
in to the dealership. Nobody else ever test drives it.

Do car makers/dealerships charge extra for a custom-order?

Not in my experiences, no. I've done it several times. I mean, they
offer various options/packages, and I'm just asking for what they offer.

And I recently read in a forum on Reddit that someone had made a custom-order for a new 2022-model car about a year ago and it
still hasn't come in yet (probably due to parts shortages due to
covid). He said they bumped him up to a 2023 model and also
charged something like $200 more for the difference in price
(doesn't seem fair since they were the ones who made him wait).

Yeah, that whole time-frame has altered things some. I haven't bought a
new car (or any car) since 2015, so haven't ran into that yet...


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Shrug.. guess it depends on who you listen too... the busted car industry or the chip manufactureres...

ST

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Ogg wrote to Blue White <=-

The older Saab did quite well. :) The newer cars with
more buttons came next. The full touchscreen models were
last.

Not surprising really. Virtual buttons lack tactile feel. With
real buttons, one can manipulate them without looking.

I agree it was no surprise. Probably only surprising to those who, for
some unknown reason, think a touch screen is necessary. :)




... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
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Hello Blue White!

Not surprising really. Virtual buttons lack tactile feel. With
real buttons, one can manipulate them without looking.

I agree it was no surprise. Probably only surprising to those who, for some unknown reason, think a touch screen is necessary. :)

Makes one wonder if these visionary designers even try to USE
their inventions in a real-life roadtest scenario to see if
they are practical to use.


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
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Hello Gamgee!

I've never heard of anyone buying a new car with single-digit
miles on it. Anyone buying a particular car would take it out
for a test drive, and surely that would even include a brief
stint on a highway, no?

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot. You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that way, and the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up when it comes
in to the dealership. Nobody else ever test drives it.

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?


--- OpenXP 5.0.57
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Ogg wrote to Gamgee <=-

I've never heard of anyone buying a new car with single-digit
miles on it. Anyone buying a particular car would take it out
for a test drive, and surely that would even include a brief
stint on a highway, no?

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot. You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that way, and the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up when it comes
in to the dealership. Nobody else ever test drives it.

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

No. Most (all?) of the options are not "field"-upgradeable. Some
specific examples that I know of: A leather-surfaced dashboard. Adjustable/adaptable performance suspension. Upgraded brakes. Integrated
alarm system. There are many more, and they have to be installed in the
car by the factory.



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Re: New Mazda
By: Ogg to Blue White on Mon May 29 2023 02:52 pm

I agree it was no surprise. Probably only surprising to those who,
for some unknown reason, think a touch screen is necessary. :)

Makes one wonder if these visionary designers even try to USE
their inventions in a real-life roadtest scenario to see if
they are practical to use.

I don't work in the auto industry, but generally I like to use the things I make, at least to test them, as I like making sure what I make actually works (and seeing it work). I'd think the creators of this stuff would have the same passion for their work. It could be that they just lacked foresight and thought it would be a cool new thing without really thinking it through fully.

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: Ogg to Gamgee on Mon May 29 2023 02:56 pm

That's why you don't buy a "new" car from the inventory on the lot.
You customize some options/packages so they have to *BUILD* it that
way, and the car is ordered for you, and you only. You pick it up

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

I'd think that would be more expensive and time-consuming overall than building a car a certain way in the first place. If they customized one that's on the lot, that means the car was already built a certain way (with time and effort put in), and then they'd go and re-do some things, add some things, etc. to make it a bit different. They may even charge you more for basically doing re-work to customize a car that was already built. For instance, if you wanted to have them add 4-wheel drive (which is an option on some cars) and you want one in a different color, that means they'll have to do work to add the 4-wheel drive and also strip the current paint and re-paint it.

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: Ogg to Gamgee on Mon May 29 2023 02:56 pm

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

I don't think so.

Some car options are too disruptive to just tack on a lot car.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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Re: New Mazda
By: Nightfox to Ogg on Mon May 29 2023 02:23 pm

I don't work in the auto industry, but generally I like to use the things I k. It could be that they just lacked foresight and thought it would be a co

Welcome to the Topdown Design model, in which a marketing team decides your product line needs a toaster with AI and IOT integration because those are the buzzwords du jour, and some Engineer who has just been denied the holiday dates he wanted and who hates marketing buzzwords creates whatever makes executives happy without giving a damn.

--
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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

When buying a new car these days, dealerships are offering a protection plan to repair cosmetic damage such as dents, wheel damage, and things like window damage. Those may come in handy to cover repairs for a
little while if you get a dent or ding in your brand-new car.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them using that service to mask a massive
dealer markup. I've been looking at the 2023 Priuses, and the markups
are incredible on (all) new models.

Toyota dealers started adding a transparent protectant surface on the
front of the new Prius, for the low low price of $3000 - on top of the
$750 all-weather mats and dealer markup.

I have a local Subaru dealer that gets a pretty good selection of used
cars, and we bought an Acura MDX from them. No markups on any of the new
cars, which was nice. If you paid cash, they had a 10-day hold period
"for the check to clear". And collect interest on your payment.

If you financed, you could drive the car off the lot.

Next time I buy a car, I'll finance it from them, beat the crap out of
them on the loan terms, make sure there's no prepayment penalty, drive
the car off the lot, then pay the loan off in the first payment.




... Trust in the you of now
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Hello Nightfox!

** On Monday 29.05.23 - 14:27, Nightfox wrote to Ogg:

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

I'd think that would be more expensive and time-consuming overall than building a car a certain way in the first place. If they customized one that's on the lot, that means the car was already built a certain way
(with time and effort put in), and then they'd go and re-do some things, add some things, etc. to make it a bit different. They may even charge
you more for basically doing re-work to customize a car that was already built. For instance, if you wanted to have them add 4-wheel drive (which is an option on some cars) and you want one in a different color, that means they'll have to do work to add the 4-wheel drive and also strip the current paint and re-paint it.

I was thinking more along the lines of adding something like a
hitch, or a different audio console, or different rims.


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Hello Gamgee!

** On Monday 29.05.23 - 14:17, Gamgee wrote to Ogg:

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

No. Most (all?) of the options are not "field"-upgradeable. Some
specific examples that I know of: A leather-surfaced dashboard. Adjustable/adaptable performance suspension. Upgraded brakes. Integrated alarm system. There are many more, and they have to be installed in the car by the factory.

Ah.. those make sense. Noted.

--- OpenXP 5.0.57
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Hello poindexter FORTRAN!

** On Monday 29.05.23 - 10:47, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Nightfox:

Next time I buy a car, I'll finance it from them, beat the crap out of them on the loan terms, make sure there's no prepayment penalty, drive
the car off the lot, then pay the loan off in the first payment.

Yep.. check for "prepayment penalty" in the small print.

But the financing terms that I've seen often have "first 3
months free" or something like that - that's my experience with
leasing from Toyota. So, why not take advantage of that?
Maybe there is something similar with making a regular purchase
of a vehicle?

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I wouldn't be surprised to see them using that service to mask a massive dealer markup. I've been looking at the 2023 Priuses, and the markups
are incredible on (all) new models.

Dealerships are such a failed concept. I am happy some OEMs are considering making dealerships obsolete.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2023/02/26 (Linux/64)
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Makes one wonder if these visionary designers even try to USE
their inventions in a real-life roadtest scenario to see if
they are practical to use.

Considering the fact that car/transportation industry goes directly into self-driving scenarios only.. I'd expect more entertainment placed inside for passengers.. I believe human driver's needs and perspective will be continually deprecated when above matures into a fully functional product.

calling cars auto-mobiles will make brand new sense, when it happens.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Mon May 29 2023 10:47 am

When buying a new car these days, dealerships are offering a
protection plan to repair cosmetic damage such as dents, wheel
damage, and things like window damage. Those may come in handy to

I wouldn't be surprised to see them using that service to mask a massive dealer markup. I've been looking at the 2023 Priuses, and the markups

I bought a car recently, and the protection plan was optional, so you didn't have to get it if you don't want to.

Toyota dealers started adding a transparent protectant surface on the front of the new Prius, for the low low price of $3000 - on top of the $750 all-weather mats and dealer markup.

I haven't heard of that one.. I've heard the extended warranty is really the best option you could buy from the dealer, and other things like accessories and any kind of paint protection etc. are usually a rip-off from the dealer (and I've heard that if you do want something like paint protection, you're better off getting that from a shop that does it professionally, as a dealership probably doesn't use good materials and doesn't install it well).

I have a local Subaru dealer that gets a pretty good selection of used cars, and we bought an Acura MDX from them. No markups on any of the new cars, which was nice. If you paid cash, they had a 10-day hold period
"for the check to clear". And collect interest on your payment.

How do they collect interest on a payment in cash?

If you financed, you could drive the car off the lot.

Next time I buy a car, I'll finance it from them, beat the crap out of them on the loan terms, make sure there's no prepayment penalty, drive
the car off the lot, then pay the loan off in the first payment.

Yeah, it's definitely good to pay it off as soon as you can. And used cars do have the advantage of not having dealer markup..

Nightfox
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Re: New Mazda
By: Ogg to Nightfox on Mon May 29 2023 10:35 pm

Couldn't they just use one of their own cars on the lot,
customize it on spot, and sell that one?

I'd think that would be more expensive and time-consuming overall
than building a car a certain way in the first place. If they

I was thinking more along the lines of adding something like a
hitch, or a different audio console, or different rims.

Ah. When Gamgee was talking about a custom-order car, I thought he was talking about the standard options the car maker offers in the various trim levels.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon May 29 2023 08:40 pm

Dealerships are such a failed concept. I am happy some OEMs are considering making dealerships obsolete.

I always thought dealerships were similar to grocery stores in that the producer just has to sell/ship to the store (dealership in this case), and the dealership handles the sales. But I have noticed one or two car makers selling direct to consumers (I think Tesla is one of them?).

Nightfox
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Gamgee wrote to Ogg <=-

No. Most (all?) of the options are not "field"-upgradeable. Some specific examples that I know of: A leather-surfaced dashboard. Adjustable/adaptable performance suspension. Upgraded brakes.
Integrated alarm system. There are many more, and they have to be installed in the car by the factory.

I bought a Prius in 2014, and they offered leather seats as an option,
done by a local upholstery shop. I don't know if they bought those
slip-on leather seat covers or re-upholstered them.

I was in a hurry to get the car, because California was discontinuing
the HOV sticker program. I had to buy what they had on the lot. I got
the cloth seats and told myself I'd replace them with leather if/when
they got stained.

I gave the interior a goood coating of Scotchgard and water and stains
still blot out with a damp cloth, 9 years later.



... Omens are there to be broken.
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Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Yep.. check for "prepayment penalty" in the small print.

But the financing terms that I've seen often have "first 3
months free" or something like that - that's my experience with
leasing from Toyota. So, why not take advantage of that?

When I bought my Prius in 2014, there was a 2-month gap before the first payment. They made that sound like it was just normal timing. It was a
0% loan, so it it didn't make a difference.




... Don't bite the hand that feeds you WiFi.
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Gamgee on Tue May 30 2023 06:29 am

I bought a Prius in 2014, and they offered leather seats as an option, done by a local upholstery shop. I don't know if they bought those
slip-on leather seat covers or re-upholstered them.

Interesting (and seems a bit odd) that leather seats would be an option for a car that would be done by a local upholstery shop. I wouldn't think that option would be offered direct from Toyota? If so, I'd think they'd come with leather from the factory. Was the dealership offering that and having the cars sent to the upholstery shop to be re-upholstered?

I was in a hurry to get the car, because California was discontinuing
the HOV sticker program. I had to buy what they had on the lot. I got
the cloth seats and told myself I'd replace them with leather if/when
they got stained.

I gave the interior a goood coating of Scotchgard and water and stains still blot out with a damp cloth, 9 years later.

I tend to prefer cloth seats, as leather can be fairly hot in the summer (not good to sit on).

Nightfox
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

No. Most (all?) of the options are not "field"-upgradeable. Some specific examples that I know of: A leather-surfaced dashboard. Adjustable/adaptable performance suspension. Upgraded brakes.
Integrated alarm system. There are many more, and they have to be installed in the car by the factory.

I bought a Prius in 2014, and they offered leather seats as an
option, done by a local upholstery shop. I don't know if they
bought those slip-on leather seat covers or re-upholstered them.

Very interesting, have never heard of a dealership doing something like
that.

I was in a hurry to get the car, because California was
discontinuing the HOV sticker program. I had to buy what they had
on the lot. I got the cloth seats and told myself I'd replace
them with leather if/when they got stained.

I gave the interior a goood coating of Scotchgard and water and
stains still blot out with a damp cloth, 9 years later.

Sounds like you got your money's worth from that Scotchgard! :-)



... Behind every great man is an amazed mother-in-law!
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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Welcome to the Topdown Design model, in which a marketing team decides your product line needs a toaster with AI and IOT integration because those are the buzzwords du jour, and some Engineer who has just been denied the holiday dates he wanted and who hates marketing buzzwords creates whatever makes executives happy without giving a damn.

That reminds me that my team now has a working group to determine if/how AI can be helpful for us.

I'm expecting the answer to be, "might be useful and interesting in the future, is of limited use for now".

Unless something is coming down the pipe that can read our code base without sharing it with the wider internet, and come up with something interesting. But I think the AI just isn't there, yet.

But at least it's better than blockchain, which has significantly narrower use cases than Chad Jipiti-style AI does.

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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I haven't heard of that one.. I've heard the extended warranty is
really the best option you could buy from the dealer,

I bought the extended warranty on the battery, and included it in the
loan - it was 0% anyways.

I have a local Subaru dealer that gets a pretty good selection of used cars, and we bought an Acura MDX from them. No markups on any of the new cars, which was nice. If you paid cash, they had a 10-day hold period
"for the check to clear". And collect interest on your payment.

How do they collect interest on a payment in cash?

Deposit the cash in an interest-bearing account.

If you financed, you could drive the car off the lot.

Next time I buy a car, I'll finance it from them, beat the crap out of them on the loan terms, make sure there's no prepayment penalty, drive
the car off the lot, then pay the loan off in the first payment.

Yeah, it's definitely good to pay it off as soon as you can. And used cars do have the advantage of not having dealer markup..

Carmax always seemed like a bad deal. They mark the cars up
significantly, low-ball any trade-in, and their "warranty" was pretty
skimpy. They are convenient, though.



... Apotheosis was the beginning before the beginning.
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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

for a car that would be done by a local upholstery shop. I wouldn't
think that option would be offered direct from Toyota? If so, I'd
think they'd come with leather from the factory. Was the dealership offering that and having the cars sent to the upholstery shop to be re-upholstered?

Toyota did offer leather from the factory, but inventory was scarce. I'm
pretty sure the local option was a third party slip-on leather seat
cover custom made for Priuses. They look really good when installed, but
are a pain to put on right.



... Apotheosis was the beginning before the beginning.
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Re: Re: New Mazda
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Wed May 31 2023 06:34 am

I haven't heard of that one.. I've heard the extended warranty is
really the best option you could buy from the dealer,

I bought the extended warranty on the battery, and included it in the
loan - it was 0% anyways.

I didn't know they made extended warranties just for a car battery. Is that for the rectangular 12-volt battery in a gas-powered car, or the battery for an electric vehicle?

How do they collect interest on a payment in cash?

Deposit the cash in an interest-bearing account.

Ah, makes sense.

Carmax always seemed like a bad deal. They mark the cars up
significantly, low-ball any trade-in, and their "warranty" was pretty skimpy. They are convenient, though.

I've never used Carmax.. I've seen their web site, and aside from perhaps more selection, I wasn't sure what Carmax offers compared to looking for what you want at the various dealerships and used car dealers.

Nightfox
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and the dealership handles the sales. But I have noticed one or two car makers selling direct to consumers (I think Tesla is one of them?).

Honda and Benz both shafted their dealers here, and introduced the shit price guarantee, by selling direct only at list price, no haggling with the dealer. As a result sales of both which have been mediocre of recent times, have tanked pretty much completely. Last figures I saw had Honda at some -60% on previous which was already -30 or so on previous.. Don't have any numbers for Benz coming to mind at present. Both brands are meant to be on their way to obscurity or oblivion take your pick.

ST

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StormTrooper wrote to Nightfox <=-

Honda and Benz both shafted their dealers here, and introduced the shit price guarantee, by selling direct only at list price, no haggling with the dealer. As a result sales of both which have been mediocre of
recent times, have tanked pretty much completely.

My mom bought a 2016 Civic, and I've always thought of them as being
cheap, dependable cars. Mechanics talk about 2002-2006 civics like
they'll outlast humanity in the same tone people refer to Camrys of
that era.

The maintenance seems high with the Civic. They wanted plugs and tranny
fluid changed every 60k, if memory serves. That would add up.




... A closed system lacks the ability to renew itself.
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My mom bought a 2016 Civic, and I've always thought of them as being
cheap, dependable cars. Mechanics talk about 2002-2006 civics like

Not sure about the cheap part, cheap and cheerful here was always toyota. Honda had more of a spunk factor. I think the dependable, and low maintenance hales from earlier days... civics had that kind of rep here in the late 70s early 80s I guess...

ST

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Re: Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jun 03 2023 09:24 am

My mom bought a 2016 Civic, and I've always thought of them as being
cheap, dependable cars. Mechanics talk about 2002-2006 civics like

Not sure about the cheap part, cheap and cheerful here was always toyota. Honda had more of a spunk factor. I think the dependable, and low maintenance hales from earlier days... civics had that kind of rep here in the late 70s early 80s I guess...

Honda has come a long way since it's beginnings. So has toyota. These vehicles became popular during the "gas crunch" years. Gasoline went from .45 cents a gallon to 2 bucks. US car manufacturers had no answer for this severe problem. Yes both Honda and Toyota were considered "cheap crapy" cars but they sold like hotcakes because of the great gas millage they got. The Volkswagon Beetle was the only vehicle that came close. My HS pal had one. You could put 2 bucks of gas in this thing and drive it for 3 days. I had a Chevy that I got 8 miles on 2 bucks. HeHe.
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Re: Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jun 03 2023 09:24 am

Not sure about the cheap part, cheap and cheerful here was always toyota.

What do you mean by "cheerful" in a car context?

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Honda
By: Hustler to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Jun 03 2023 07:54 am

Honda has come a long way since it's beginnings. So has toyota. These vehicles became popular during the "gas crunch" years. Gasoline went from .45 cents a gallon to 2 bucks. US car manufacturers had no answer for this severe problem. Yes both Honda and Toyota were considered "cheap crappy" cars but they sold like hotcakes because of the great gas millage they

I thought I had heard Honda and Toyota had a pretty good reputation in those days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said, tended to use a lot more gas than their foreign competitors.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Honda
By: Nightfox to Hustler on Sun Jun 04 2023 12:19 pm

days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said, tended to use a lot

Well, keep in mind jobs were at stake. Buy American not Japanese was the theme. Pay more for gas to support America. I kept my old cars much longer then I should have. I finally bought a Dodge K-car 4 banger that got 18-town and 28 hyway
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Well, keep in mind jobs were at stake. Buy American not Japanese was the theme. Pay more for gas to support America. I kept my old cars much
longer then I should have. I finally bought a Dodge K-car 4 banger that got 18-town and 28 hyway

I think the supply chain made it interesting, too, since buying one nationality over another was oftentimes only about brand ownership, with the Japanese cars oftentimes being assembled in the US while the US cars were assembled in Mexico.

Or something like that, with parts from a variety of locations.

But I'm not stating this from any particular point of knowledge. Just that, as an end consumer, it's hard to know what exactly you're getting, aside from when talking to individual people like at a local-only farmers' market. And it's kind of annoying when, "avoid buying foreign products from a certain country" becomes "buy products from a certain country through a middleman".

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Not sure about the cheap part, cheap and cheerful here was always toy

What do you mean by "cheerful" in a car context?

Ponder... good question.. probably the "simple" end of the equation... does what you need with a minimum of fuss or extras.

ST

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Re: Re: Honda
By: Hustler to Nightfox on Sun Jun 04 2023 06:57 pm

days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have
a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said, tended
to use a lot

Well, keep in mind jobs were at stake. Buy American not Japanese was the theme. Pay more for gas to support America. I kept my old cars much longer

I can understand both sides of the argument. But if people just want a good reliable car, I can understand choosing a Honda or Toyota (and I remember also Volkswagen producing some reliable and fuel-efficient cars too).

Also, at least these days, many American car brands have factories in other countries, so your American-branded car might have actually been built elsewhere. And several foreign car brands have factories in the US and Canada (Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, BMW, and perhaps others).

Nightfox
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StormTrooper wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Not sure about the cheap part, cheap and cheerful here was always
toyota.

I had a 2002 Camry SE with the V6 engine for many years. Cheap,
dependable, and a lot of fun to drive. Finally sold it when I needed
carpool lane stickers for my commute and bought a plug-in Prius.

The Camry never left me stranded in 14 years of driving.



... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
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Nightfox wrote to Hustler <=-

I thought I had heard Honda and Toyota had a pretty good reputation in those days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said,
tended to use a lot more gas than their foreign competitors.

There are a couple of web sites that refer to the "Malaise era" of
American autos. After the gas crunch and catalytic converts came
unleaded gas, DOT-mandated headlights and 85 mph speedometers, 55 mph
freeways, poor gas mileage and anemic engines.

My high-school buddy's '77 Corvette with a 350 V8 generated as much
horsepower as my 2002 Camry with a 3.0 liter V6. And weighed less!





... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
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Hustler wrote to Nightfox <=-

Re: Re: Honda
By: Nightfox to Hustler on
Sun Jun 04 2023 12:19 pm

days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said, tended to use a lot

Well, keep in mind jobs were at stake. Buy American not Japanese was
the theme. Pay more for gas to support America. I kept my old cars much longer then I should have. I finally bought a Dodge K-car 4 banger that got 18-town and 28 hyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twkIdxgS0lo

"I'm Tim. I drive an Aries..."



... ZIMA TASTES BETTER WHEN IT'S ILLEGAL
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I had a 2002 Camry SE with the V6 engine for many years. Cheap,
dependable, and a lot of fun to drive. Finally sold it when I needed
carpool lane stickers for my commute and bought a plug-in Prius.

My first car was a 72 Celica. It performed without exception, except (yes oxymoron) when driven to much youthful exuberance. I blew up one engine on the racetrack.

ST

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Nightfox wrote to Hustler <=-

Also, at least these days, many American car brands have factories in other countries, so your American-branded car might have actually been built elsewhere. And several foreign car brands have factories in the
US and Canada (Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, BMW, and perhaps others).

Subaru has been built here for a long time. Mercedes tried building in
Alabama in the 2000s, but had quality control issues. I don't think they continued doing so.



... The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant.
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For what its worth. Apparently Honda Straya sold in 2007 something like 60k cars for the year. Last month, May... they sold some 816, extrapolate that for 12 months and they're on the road to nowhere.

They've joined perennial losers Jaguar, RAM, LDV and Ssangyong at the bottom of the pile of irrelevancy. This while the car industry is having an ~8% increase over may last year.

ST

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They've joined perennial losers Jaguar, RAM, LDV and Ssangyong at the

I ordered my 2019 RAM from the website and had everything added to talk myself out of trading in my 2016 Durango R/T. I loved that ride!

2022 RAM was the last of the great rides. The 2023+ versions are well over $74K loaded and have less than 1/3 the options my ride has. Dealership keeps saying to come talk to them so they can get me into a new 2023 3.0 Turbo Diesel -- no thanks -- stop calling. I'm like, write me a check for $42-45K and I'll drop the truck off and go buy something else. :)

-- I only traded the Durango in because you couldn't hall anything (couldn't even get a 4x4 sheet of plywood in the back due to the way the rear curves in on itself. The truck is overkill, but there is so much room and the two rear doors open 90 degrees - which allows things to be slide behind the front seats. I also have the RAMBOXes as well, which are fun for what they are.

-- My old 2004 Malibu was the perfect highway ride - going from Omaha, NE to Chicago, IL on less than 3/4 tank of fuel (500 miles one way).

Timothy Norris
aka SirRonmit
admin@f4fbbs.com
bbs.f4fbbs.com:62323

... Don't diet, download a virus to remove the FAT.

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Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to All on Wed Jun 07 2023 11:34 am

For what its worth. Apparently Honda Straya sold in 2007 something like 60k cars for the year. Last month, May... they sold some 816, extrapolate that for 12 months and they're on the road to nowhere.

They've joined perennial losers Jaguar, RAM, LDV and Ssangyong at the bottom of the pile of irrelevancy. This while the car industry is having an ~8% increase over may last year.

I'm a bit surprised, and I'm wondering why Honda would be doing so poorly there? For a long time, I thought Honda has been up near the top as a popular car brand due to reliability, cost, and other factors. And I thought Honda was still fairly popular here in the US, as far as I knew, but I hadn't checked their sales statistics.

Nightfox
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StormTrooper wrote to All <=-

For what its worth. Apparently Honda Straya sold in 2007
something like 60k cars for the year. Last month, May... they
sold some 816, extrapolate that for 12 months and they're on the
road to nowhere.

They've joined perennial losers Jaguar, RAM, LDV and Ssangyong at
the bottom of the pile of irrelevancy. This while the car
industry is having an ~8% increase over may last year.

I see LOTS of (new) Hondas on the roads here. I don't think Honda is in
any danger of "irrelevancy" here in the USA.

Here's a page of interest:

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-us-sales-figures/



... A day without sunshine is like night.
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Re: Re: Honda
By: Nightfox to Hustler on Mon Jun 05 2023 08:09 am

days. Im the 80s, I remember hearing how US car makers started to have
a bad reputation as their quality went down and, as you said, tended

to use a lot

I can understand both sides of the argument. But if people just want a good reliable car, I can understand choosing a Honda or Toyota (and I remember al

Volkswagen producing some reliable and fuel-efficient cars too).
Also, at least these days, many American car brands have factories in other countries, so your American-branded car might have actually been built

I thought we were discussing Honda and Toyota in the 80's. Today is a entirely different story.
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Re: Re: Honda
By: Hustler to Nightfox on Wed Jun 07 2023 05:02 am

Also, at least these days, many American car brands have factories
in other
countries, so your American-branded car might have actually been built

I thought we were discussing Honda and Toyota in the 80's. Today is a entirely different story.

Yeah, I was saying I suspect some American cars in the 80s may have been built elsewhere (which would somewhat negate the idea of buying American to support American jobs), but I'm not entirely sure about that.

Nightfox
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I'm a bit surprised, and I'm wondering why Honda would be doing so poorly there? For a long time, I thought Honda has been up near the top as a popular car brand due to reliability, cost, and other factors. And I thought Honda was still fairly popular here in the US, as far as I knew, but I hadn't checked their sales statistics.

The other one in the same boat here, is Benz. They also shafted all their dealers and instituted the shit price guarantee. Of recent times Honda here has had the perception of being expensive, and no longer cutting edge.

Apparently in Australian Micro Pesos a new civic is in the order of $47k in its cheapest version while the Hyundai I30 costs somewhere in the order $27k one of these two is a top 10 seller, while the other one is the Civic.

ST

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Here's a page of interest:

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-us-sales-figures/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSv0WhMoIE

ST

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Re: Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to Nightfox on Thu Jun 08 2023 06:33 am

Apparently in Australian Micro Pesos a new civic is in the order of $47k in its cheapest version while the Hyundai I30 costs somewhere in the order $27k one of these two is a top 10 seller, while the other one is the Civic.

Interesting to hear the Honda Civic has gone up that much in price.. Also, I've heard Hyundai (and Kia as well, as they're part of the same family of cars) have a flaw that makes them very easy to steal. I've heard statistics here that those cars have a higher theft rate compared to other car brands, and some US states have opened a lawsuit against them due to them being so easy to steal. I'd probably avoid buying one, as there are other cars in a similar price range.

Nightfox
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StormTrooper wrote to Gamgee <=-

Here's a page of interest:

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/honda-us-sales-figures/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSv0WhMoIE

"This video isn't available anymore".



... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSv0WhMoIE

Typo, for reasons unknown SyncTerm has become highly resistant to copy/paste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xSvoWhMoIE

ST

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Re: Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to Gamgee on Thu Jun 08 2023 08:45 pm

Typo, for reasons unknown SyncTerm has become highly resistant to copy/paste.

Which version of SyncTERM? If using v1.2b (beta, still in development), but sure to get a recent nightly build.
--
digital man (rob)

This Is Spinal Tap quote #31:
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Typo, for reasons unknown SyncTerm has become highly resistant to copy/paste.

Which version of SyncTERM? If using v1.2b (beta, still in development), but sure to get a recent nightly build.

To be honest, I'm not sure, its pretty long in the tooth, and I don't see a version number anywhere. It's 1.1 can't say I've had any particular drama with it before... copy the target, and right click into the destination... shrug. Its no real biggie..

ST

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To be honest, I'm not sure, its pretty long in the tooth, and I don't
see a version number anywhere. It's 1.1 can't say I've had any
particular drama with it before... copy the target, and right click into the destination... shrug. Its no real biggie..

The joys of remaining away from the bleeding edge, I suppose.

I went to SyncTERM (from MagiTerm) when switching to my newer computers, and have been enjoying being able to type ���� without difficulty.

But I'm guessing the sixel coverage, or rip graphics might not work the best. So I can certainly imagine needing to be using the latest versions.

(And if Apam sees this - I hope you continue working on MagiTerm, as I'm a fan. Especially of splitting up logging in (using ALT-U then ALT-P, rather than ALT-L) because of the occasional issue where sending the password immediately after the username is problematic.)

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The joys of remaining away from the bleeding edge, I suppose.

I have a certain affinity for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Oddly enough my copy/paste problem seems to be related to what SyncTerm is connected to. It steadfastly refuses both operations when connected to Synchro systems. Most other systems it works just fine with.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
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BY: StormTrooper (21:2/108)

|11S|09> |10Oddly enough my copy/paste problem seems to be related to what SyncTerm|07
|11S|09> |10is connected to. It steadfastly refuses both operations when connected|07
|11S|09> |10to Synchro systems. Most other systems it works just fine with.|07

I think that's because Synchronet systems let you use the mouse. I have the same problem with syncterm on my mac too.

|11r|09ushfan|07


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BY: Adept (21:2/108)

|11A|09> |10The joys of remaining away from the bleeding edge, I suppose.|07
I use ZOC :)


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* Origin: inland utopia * california * iutopia.duckdns.org:2023 (21:4/108)

The joys of remaining away from the bleeding edge, I suppose.

I have a certain affinity for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I like the concept, but also get concerned that I wind up holding on to old and not great solutions much longer than I should.

Or don't embrace / use the neat new things that I just haven't learned, yet.

But it's difficult for me to embrace _waste_, too.

Oddly enough my copy/paste problem seems to be related to what SyncTerm
is connected to. It steadfastly refuses both operations when connected
to Synchro systems. Most other systems it works just fine with.

That seems... wacky. I have no idea on the SyncTerm code base, but you'd think it'd be copying text from a screen full of text, and BBS _shouldn't_ matter.

But interesting that it seems to.

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Re: Re: Honda
By: Adept to StormTrooper on Mon Jun 12 2023 10:39 am

I have a certain affinity for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I like the concept, but also get concerned that I wind up holding on to old and not great solutions much longer than I should.

I tend to agree. Products often tend to improve over time, so "If it's not broken, don't fix it" doesn't always make sense.

Oddly enough my copy/paste problem seems to be related to what
SyncTerm is connected to. It steadfastly refuses both operations
when connected to Synchro systems. Most other systems it works just
fine with.

That seems... wacky. I have no idea on the SyncTerm code base, but you'd think it'd be copying text from a screen full of text, and BBS _shouldn't_ matter.

But interesting that it seems to.

I wouldn't think copy & paste would matter, but I think someone else said it may be related to whether or not mouse click support is enabled, which could affect whether or not you can click & highlight text in the terminal. And I don't think that would be specifically affected by Synchronet BBSes, as it's possible that mouse support could work when remotely connected to any system (including just a SSH command-prompt session with a remote Linux system).

Nightfox
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I tend to agree. Products often tend to improve over time, so "If it's not broken, don't fix it" doesn't always make sense.

I suppose we could be liberal with our definition of "broken", but, yeah, agreed.

E.g., cars -- while I probably wouldn't replace a perfectly-working vehicle, I am a fan of a variety of safety features that are pretty standard in newer vehicles.

I wouldn't think copy & paste would matter, but I think someone else
said it may be related to whether or not mouse click support is enabled, which could affect whether or not you can click & highlight text in the terminal. And I don't think that would be specifically affected by

Ah, yeah, that would make sense for what Stormtrooper is facing. Your standard 3rd cause sort of scenario, where the code for copy and paste is probably working just fine, just that it's not reachable because the click was captured by something else.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I have a certain affinity for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I like the concept, but also get concerned that I wind up holding on old and not great solutions much longer than I should.

I tend to agree. Products often tend to improve over time, so "If it's not broken, don't fix it" doesn't always make sense.

Mebbe I use the wrong products, but IME most upgrades don't actually produce any benefits. I'm sure there's stuff tha's fixed, added (bloat) and other goodness going on too, but I'd hate to try and count the number of times upgrades broke functionality for me.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
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Re: Re: Honda
By: StormTrooper to Nightfox on Tue Jun 13 2023 02:47 pm

I tend to agree. Products often tend to improve over time, so "If
it's not broken, don't fix it" doesn't always make sense.

Mebbe I use the wrong products, but IME most upgrades don't actually produce any benefits. I'm sure there's stuff tha's fixed, added (bloat) and other goodness going on too, but I'd hate to try and count the number of times upgrades broke functionality for me.

Some people say you shouldn't buy the first version of something, but rather you should wait until they work some of the problems out and maybe improve it a bit too. I tend to agree with that - Early versions of things tend to have room for improvement, and IMO often are improved in later versions.

Nightfox
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Some people say you shouldn't buy the first version of something, but rather you should wait until they work some of the problems out and maybe improve it a bit too. I tend to agree with that - Early versions of things tend to have room for improvement, and IMO often are improved in later versions.

A lot of stuff appears to follow similar trajectories... New is built like a brick sheltershed and probably pretty much functions. Almost new is still pretty nuclear bunker built with some bugs ironed, or additional
functionality, and then you get the rest of the shit, where it becomes what
can we do to make it cheaper, what can we leave out...

Spec


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SirRonmit wrote to StormTrooper <=-

-- My old 2004 Malibu was the perfect highway ride - going from Omaha,
NE to Chicago, IL on less than 3/4 tank of fuel (500 miles one way).

In college, I had a '77 VW Rabbit diesel. With 4 people inside, it'd
cruise at 62 miles an hour all day long - at about 48 mpg. Diesel back
then was around $1.19/gallon...



... It is quite possible (after all)
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