The original IBM PC? Now that is
interesting because I can control every aspect of that machine.

True. I started with a Commodore 64, but it wasn't until I got a PC-XT clone that things really got interesting. There were virtually *no*
ports on the motherboard, everything was done with add-on cards. So,
you could incrementally upgrade it easily. I started with replacing the 8088 CPU with a V20, getting a math co-processor for my CS classwork, upgrading the hard drive and controller to RLL to get more space, then replacing the motherboard with an AT/287, inheriting a card that added memory to the system along with more I/O... by the time I was done the only things left original were the power supply and the case.

Same. I wanted to do graphics on the Commodore 64, and program in "machine code" but books were hard to come by. It wasn't until a couple of years later,
when I had a 386, and an assembler, and books, where I could really feel that FINALLY I was able to really access the hardware.

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I don't mind windows 11, it's much nicer than windows 10, but the hardware requirements suck.

The one thing I absolutely hated about Win11 was the right-click flyout menu in file explorer. Burying all the useful options in submenus requiring more clicking around was pretty lame.

(I'm behind on messages, so perhaps this already got talked about)

What I'm struggling with, with Win11, along with what you're saying, are other minor annoyances that I don't understand.

E.g., there's a default widget, that I would actively like -- if it didn't automatically open on hover. They introduced it that way on Win10, but then eventually included a way to make it not open on hover. Then made the same decision with Win11 to have it open on hover, but figured that defaulting it to
the corner was enough.

And another minor thing, is that there are different things that happen when you click on the speaker icon, whether it's a left or right click. So I misclick, then do the right click, and the second click comes up behind the first. So I click out of both, then do the click I wanted.

And all of these are things that were handled differently in Win10, and I don't
see any compelling reason for them to have changed it.

And, in the case of the widget, "do not open on hover" should _always_ be an option, for anything more than a tooltip.

But, in general, Win11 seems fine to me. I can't say I particularly _care_ about how it's different from Win10, but largely it does what I want, and I can
ignore it most of the time.

And that's the state I want for an OS. Basically stop thinking about it.

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On 07 Dec 2022 at 01:19p, Adept pondered and said...

(I'm behind on messages, so perhaps this already got talked about)

If it helps I am too :)

What I'm struggling with, with Win11, along with what you're saying, are

I haven't used Win 11 as yet but my hunch is I may ride it out until the next OS version is released then try to move to that.. but time will tell I guess.

But, in general, Win11 seems fine to me. I can't say I particularly
_care_ about how it's different from Win10, but largely it does what I want, and I can ignore it most of the time.

And that's the state I want for an OS. Basically stop thinking about it.

sounds totally fair and reasonable :)

Pondering chocolate is far more fun :)

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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I haven't used Win 11 as yet but my hunch is I may ride it out until the next OS version is released then try to move to that.. but time will
tell I guess.

I think Win 11 is only slightly different from Win 10. I would have to go looking to find differences that matter.

So it seems reasonable to me for people to skip the version. I'm really only running it because I got new computers this year, and it seemed more reasonable
to have systems that were running Win 11 immediately.

Pondering chocolate is far more fun :)

It _is_.

I've gotten a variety of chocolate, and will eat some while typing this message, though I think the interesting food item I've been doing is my wine and gin advent calendars.

It's neat to try a couple new things each day, write down a short review, take some pictures, etc.

Eventually I'll get the info into my wine wiki, which, while it's more work than I'd like, is a part of the fun of trying out various alcohols.

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Adept wrote to Avon <=-

So it seems reasonable to me for people to skip the version. I'm really only running it because I got new computers this year, and it seemed
more reasonable to have systems that were running Win 11 immediately.

Windows 10 runs fine here, and Windows 11 won't run because this system doesn't have a TPM chip. It's a home model, I'm guessing lots of people will be unable to upgrade, and in 2025 they'll have to push the EOL date out further.

I don't think the whole Windows-Industrial complex works the way it used to, where a new Windows version would drive hardware purchases, which would run the newer versions of Windows and Office better.


... Repetition is a form of change
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BY: poindexter FORTRAN(21:4/122)


|11pF|09> |10doesn't have a TPM chip. It's a home model, I'm guessing lots of people|07
|11pF|09> |10will |07
|11pF|09> |10be unable to upgrade, and in 2025 they'll have to push the EOL date out |07
its enviromentally irresposible what they did. Such as making ryzen 1st generation not supported. My motherboard has the proper tpm chip.

I would of just added 1 more Intel chip to be supported the 7th gen, and the ryzen 1st gen at least.

|11pF|09> |10further.|07
|11pF|09> |07
|11pF|09> |10I don't think the whole Windows-Industrial complex works the way it used|07
They should just make a better operating system. Maybe it was a conspiracy to drive new hardware sales. I might have to upgrade my desktop to have a PCI 4.0 bus at the minimum.

I will likely wait another six months if I want to convert the chip off my motherboard to a 550 AMD mb, put 32gb of 3600 ddr4 ram and a 2tb m2 stick with a 1tb ssd regular drive and I will be content with that.
I currently have a ryzen 5700x.


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I've gotten a variety of chocolate, and will eat some while typing this message, though I think the interesting food item I've been doing is my wine and gin advent calendars.

We recently decided to make our own chocolates after stumbling across a YouTube
video. We had a blast - we borrowed a tempering machine from a friend and bought some molds from Amazon and we made our own peanut butter cups, genaches,
sea salt caramels...it was a ton of fun. A ton of work, too!

But I really grew to respect how much effort it takes to temper chocolate, it's
a labor of love. I also now realize how much of a ripoff boxes of chocolates are. And being able to control the light/dark mix, filling, etc., was really cool. I highly recommend trying this some time.

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Windows 10 runs fine here, and Windows 11 won't run because this system doesn't have a TPM chip. It's a home model, I'm guessing lots of people will be unable to upgrade, and in 2025 they'll have to push the EOL
date out further.

I struggle to figure out the killer feature Windows is bringing to the table nowadays in most use cases. Now that computers are front-ends for the internet,
there don't appear to be many interesting differentiators. I think the following are probably the core remaining major use cases:
- Gaming (linux is coming along but is still a ways off and may never catch up) - Office (though doing everything in the cloud is rendering this redundant)
- Ease/compatibility (my 67 year old father would have no idea how to install and use linux on his own)
- Supported applications (everything basically works in Windows)

Aside from that, I think people probably use Windows because it's a known quantity and has basic understood principles at this point simply due to the history of its use.

This isn't to bash on Windows...I actually loved WSL when it came out and tried
/hard/ to make a proper Windows dev environment. But as I always do, aside from
my main gaming rig, I found my way back to linux after a bit. And I even tried Windows 11 and really wanted to like it. Alas it wasn't meant to be.

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They should just make a better operating system. Maybe it was a
conspiracy to drive new hardware sales. I might have to upgrade my
desktop to have a PCI 4.0 bus at the minimum.

You know, this reminds me...I actually for the most part use middle of the road
hardware for my daily computing needs, throw linux on it, call it a day...but I
spend a small fortune building vintage DOS and Windows 98 machines lol. Those were the real days of meaningful innovation...

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On 09 Dec 2022 at 11:58a, Adept pondered and said...

So it seems reasonable to me for people to skip the version. I'm really only running it because I got new computers this year, and it seemed
more reasonable to have systems that were running Win 11 immediately.

I'd love a new computer but have to win the lotto first :)

yeah I expect I'll need to move some systems across to Win 10 or 11 sooner than
later... but while the lights keep blinkty blinking I'm happy - heh.

Pondering chocolate is far more fun :)

It _is_.

I've gotten a variety of chocolate, and will eat some while typing this message, though I think the interesting food item I've been doing is my wine and gin advent calendars.
It's neat to try a couple new things each day, write down a short
review, take some pictures, etc.
Eventually I'll get the info into my wine wiki, which, while it's more work than I'd like, is a part of the fun of trying out various alcohols.

Ooo... sounds good. For me the challenge would be not scoffing it all before I formed a good review/view else it would all just be "yum"

Kerr Avon [Blake's 7] 'I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid and I'm not going' avon[at]bbs.nz | bbs.nz | fsxnet.nz

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Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: esc to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Dec 09 2022 04:08 pm

Now that computers are front-ends for
the internet, there don't appear to be many interesting differentiators. I

I don't think I necessarily agree with that, nor do I think computers should just be front-ends for the internet. Not everything is well suited to run as a
web/internet based app. Photo and video processing, software development, and other number-crunching tasks lend themselves to having a powerful computer at home that you can use for those kinds of things. Video games is another example.

Sometimes it seems like some software companies want us to use web apps though,
as they can easily charge a subscription fee. In some ways it seems like a step backwards - I remember hearing about people using dumb terminals connected
to powerful central mainframe computers in the 60s and 70s.. As computers became smaller, more affordable, and more powerful, it became much easier to have a fairly powerful computer at home that could run software locally, and generally that was seen as a good thing.

I struggle to figure out the killer feature Windows is bringing to the table nowadays in most use cases.

Yeah, I'm not sure any particular computer OS has any killer feature these days. As you said though, Windows just being a known thing means that pretty much all types of software are made for Windows (particularly gaming).

I've seen certain programs that some people just seem to love which are only made for one platform (i.e. Mac-only versions of certain programs), but I don't
think there's any limiting factor where it would really need to be platform-specific.

Oddly, I've noticed that a large percentage of people who do photo & video editing and making music (content creators) still seem to prefer Mac, and a lot
of web developers seem to like working on a Mac too. I've heard that music software for Mac in general tends to "just work" and have low latency, but (in my limited experience) I haven't seen much problem with latency with Windows music software either.. The web devleopment connection with Mac is one thing I
don't quite understand though.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: Avon to Adept on Sat Dec 10 2022 01:32 pm

yeah I expect I'll need to move some systems across to Win 10 or 11 sooner than later... but while the lights keep blinkty blinking I'm happy - heh.

When is "sooner than later"? :P
Sooner than a time that would be later than what?

Nightfox
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I don't think I necessarily agree with that, nor do I think computers should just be front-ends for the internet. Not everything is well
suited to run as a web/internet based app. Photo and video processing, software development, and other number-crunching tasks lend themselves
to having a powerful computer at home that you can use for those kinds
of things. Video games is another example.

Yeah, but if you consider the number of people that use computers, the actual number of people that do any real gaming, development, photoshop, etc., is a pretty small chunk. The majority of people use computers rather casually, in which case computers basically are frontends for the internet.

Sometimes it seems like some software companies want us to use web apps though, as they can easily charge a subscription fee. In some ways it seems like a step backwards - I remember hearing about people using dumb terminals connected to powerful central mainframe computers in the 60s
and 70s.. As computers became smaller, more affordable, and more powerful, it became much easier to have a fairly powerful computer at
home that could run software locally, and generally that was seen as a good thing.

This is true, but it's also much easier to maintain. Build a web app, and then anyone with a browser can basically use it. You don't need to deal with customers downloading and installing things, really you can just offload all that burden onto the web browser itself. At the end of the day it lowers the burden significantly for development.

Yeah, I'm not sure any particular computer OS has any killer feature
these days. As you said though, Windows just being a known thing means that pretty much all types of software are made for Windows
(particularly gaming).

Agree. Honestly for casual web browsing and basic usage, essentially when I'm not doing dev work for my job or BBS stuff or gaming, I tend to use my iPad. It's just easier and gets out of the way.

I've seen certain programs that some people just seem to love which are only made for one platform (i.e. Mac-only versions of certain programs), but I don't think there's any limiting factor where it would really need to be platform-specific.

Agree, however I am sympathetic to game companies refusing to release for linux...it's a pain in the ass building something closed source and trying to support linux as a platform for your software, due to the bespoke nature of what 'linux' means for basically every type of user.

Oddly, I've noticed that a large percentage of people who do photo &
video editing and making music (content creators) still seem to prefer Mac, and a lot of web developers seem to like working on a Mac too.
I've heard that music software for Mac in general tends to "just work"
and have low latency, but (in my limited experience) I haven't seen much problem with latency with Windows music software either.. The web devleopment connection with Mac is one thing I don't quite understand though.

I prefer doing web dev on a Mac, I also prefer photo editing and making music on a Mac. Doing any kind of dev work in Windows has always been a bit of a nightmare for me. I use a Mac for doing dev stuff at work, but it's also an amazing personal computer. I prefer it infinitely over Windows.

For personal stuff, I use linux, unless I want to play a modern game (Windows) or I want to do some creative type things (Mac).

To each their own *shrug*

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Re: Re: 2017/2018 PC to modernize it.
By: esc to Nightfox on Sat Dec 10 2022 03:23 am

affordable, and more powerful, it became much easier to have a
fairly powerful computer at home that could run software locally,
and generally that was seen as a good thing.

This is true, but it's also much easier to maintain. Build a web app, and then anyone with a browser can basically use it. You don't need to deal with customers downloading and installing things, really you can just offload all that burden onto the web browser itself. At the end of the day it lowers the burden significantly for development.

Web development has its own issues though. You have to test it in multiple web
browsers (and perhaps multiple versions of multiple web browsers). And for years, IE was the bane of web development as it had its own bugs and special cases you had to allow for. It seems like a lot of hassle to have to test for multiple browsers & such.

I'm not doing dev work for my job or BBS stuff or gaming, I tend to use my iPad. It's just easier and gets out of the way.

What do you mean by "gets out of the way"?

Agree, however I am sympathetic to game companies refusing to release for linux...it's a pain in the ass building something closed source and trying to support linux as a platform for your software, due to the bespoke nature of what 'linux' means for basically every type of user.

That's true - though I think gaming support is one of the things Linux users have been wanting most. I think it's good that a big gaming company like Steam
has been supporting Linux for a little while now.

I prefer doing web dev on a Mac, I also prefer photo editing and making music on a Mac. Doing any kind of dev work in Windows has always been a bit of a nightmare for me. I use a Mac for doing dev stuff at work, but it's also an amazing personal computer. I prefer it infinitely over Windows.

I'm curious how web development was a nightmare on Windows?
The development work I've done is more often back-end, desktop software (usually C# these days, but sometimes C++), and some mobile. I've done a little bit of web development and usually I use Windows and can't say I've encountered any significant problems doing it.

Nightfox
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Web development has its own issues though. You have to test it in multiple web browsers (and perhaps multiple versions of multiple web browsers). And for years, IE was the bane of web development as it had its own bugs and special cases you had to allow for. It seems like a
lot of hassle to have to test for multiple browsers & such.

Yeah, this is true, to a point. Nowadays we have things like react which makes a lot of this rather straightforward. But yeah I hear you.

What do you mean by "gets out of the way"?

I open up my iPad, am instantly on the internet, nothing is being advertised to
me, all I need to do is tap the Chrome icon and I'm off and doing what I want. When I'm done, I close the thing, and don't have a second thought. It automatically keeps packages up to date, I never need to click a button to upgrade anything, idk, in my experience I can carry the thing around and then instantly be on the internet anywhere with no fuss.

Consider that the iPad has democratized computing for groups of people that have never even owned a computer, similarly the iPhone and other smartphones. And these things don't even come with an instruction manual. /That/ is what I mean about it staying out of the way.

That's true - though I think gaming support is one of the things Linux users have been wanting most. I think it's good that a big gaming
company like Steam has been supporting Linux for a little while now.

The problem is the market share of people asking for gaming support on linux are not assumed to be large enough to warrant dumping dev resources into linux support. So a lot of gaming companies actually assume there'd be a financial loss in adding linux support. Not to mention everyone's linux configuration is a mixed bag...for example, on Steam, you can say "You need Windows 10 with 8gb RAM to run this" or "You need MacOS Yosemite" or something like that. With linux, they can try supporting the most recent Ubuntu LTS, but if you read the support forums for these games you'll notice a lot of people with different flavors of linux complain about compatibility issues.

I do think the Steam Deck has moved the needle a bit in favor of supportability, though, which is great...because I prefer linux and would love to have it for all my gaming needs :)

I'm curious how web development was a nightmare on Windows?
The development work I've done is more often back-end, desktop software (usually C# these days, but sometimes C++), and some mobile. I've done a little bit of web development and usually I use Windows and can't say
I've encountered any significant problems doing it.

My "dev on windows" experience historically has involved installing some 3rd party bash type thing, building a dev environment, wiring it up to work in the bash (git bash or something else), keeping everything in that environment up to
date...whereas now WSL does make things a bit easier but man, that thing is a serious resource hog, and I can't traverse the filesystem well from the Windows
side (or vice versa)...it's really just an annoyance and things have been much more straightforward for me to just launch my Mac and do a 'brew update' and am
ready to go.

In other words, Windows hasn't really prevented me from being able to do anything per se...it just isn't as natural of an experience. In Windows, for me
to do web dev, I have to bolt on a bunch of unix-y like stuff to an OS that is built completely different and then wrangle it into dev workflows. Whereas with
a Mac, it's already built on BSD, and everything is greatly simplified.

Another example is at my company we supported linux strictly as backend tech for our software and recently have had to build Windows compatibility (again just for our backend stuff). Making things work in Windows has been a total nightmare lol.

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